EXAMINATION of BR. DENIS MINIHANE (one)
BR. DENIS MINIHANE WAS THEN EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY MR. O'LEARY
Q. MR. O'LEARY: Yes, Chairman. Hello, Br. Minihane, how are you? My name is Tim O'Leary and I am here instructed by Mr. Eugene Murphy for Murphy English & Company solicitors, who the Commission have nominated to act on behalf of those who may have made various complaints to the Commission. I think you understand that.
A. I do.
Q. I think you also understand that it is not envisaged that I am going to mention any names of individual people who may have made complaints in the private Phase II part of the Inquiry. You understand that as well?
A. I do.
Q. I am also not going to mention any individual Brothers by name, I think it is not envisaged in that regard either. Although, I think maybe from time to time it will become clear during our conversation that there are individuals involved. You understand that as well?
A. Yes.
Q. I have read your opening statement, which effectively can be taken as the phase I statement in this Commission; isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. I just want to ask you a few personal questions in terms of your own, shall we say, involvement. You were actually attached to Greenmount Industrial School, were you simply residing there for that period of five months you mentioned?
A. Yes, I was residing there, I was teaching in another school in Cork City and I just did some supervision, a very small amount.
Q. Oh, I see. Yes. I had understood that you weren't involved in the running of the school, but you say you may have been involved in supervision in a general sense?
A. Yes.
Q. You are aware that there have been -- that evidence has been given of both physical and sexual abuse taking place at that time, and certainly leading up to that time and, indeed, after that time, maybe not specifically that particular period of time. I presume you were actually in the Commission when that evidence was given?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. First of all, to separate the two, would you accept that there was unwarranted physical abuse in Greenmount Industrial School?
A. Yes, by today's standards there certainly was, especially at a period during the 1940's, our research would show that there was certainly excess corporal punishment.
Q. Yes. As you know, that may have arisen for discipline reasons, it even may have existed without good disciplinary reasons. It is very hard to be precise in relation the that, but you would accept that it was excessive?
A. I would accept that certainly by today's standards it was excessive.
Q. Yes. Well it is very hard for me, as you can imagine, and indeed hard for yourself to go back into that time, as to what was acceptable then. But you may have heard evidence in relation to the use of, let's say, canes or I think what was described as bamboo sticks, in terms of certain corporal punishment. Would you think that's ever acceptable, even at the time?
A. There was mention by one of the contributors that there was a strap that had coins embedded in it, or something. I don't accept that. Any research I have done, or anything I could do to find out whether that happened or not has been negative.
Q. Oh I see. So just for the avoidance of doubt, you don't accept that happened is what you are saying?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Can I put it this way, because we won't be able to resolve it, I think, in this particular forum, it might be a matter for the Commission ultimately, in their report. Would you accept that if that did take place that it was unacceptable even at the time?
A. Oh yes.
Q. In relation to discipline generally, there doesn't appear to be any record, or a discipline log, or a discipline book, isn't that correct?
A. That's true.
Q. Do you know was there a discipline book kept at the time, or is it the fact that it has been lost, or is the case that in fact there was never any discipline book?
A. All I can tell you about a discipline book is that it is mentioned in the rules and constitutions of industrial schools.
Q. Yes.
A. Apart from the fact that it was there, I have never heard from any inspection that it was complained it was missing. We have no evidence whatever that a Punishment Book, as it was called, existed.
Q. Existed, yes.
A. Yes. As you know, there were frequent inspections of all the other books and there were reports made.
Q. Yes.
A. And at no time did we find a mention of the absence of a Punishment Book.
Q. Yes. Of the absence of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Or, indeed, the existence of it?
A. Exactly, yes.
Q. Did you have personal knowledge of the existence of such a book?
A. No.
Q. I presume you'd accept that if there wasn't such a book there should have been one?
A. Oh absolutely, it was in the rules. But what puzzles us is that it was never adverted to in any of the reports from visiting people from the Department.
Q. Either the presence or absence of same?
A. Exactly.
Q. In your time there, I know you weren't involved and you may take it, Br. Minihane, that I am not going to be asking you personal questions of that sense to in anyway lead you down any road you don't want to go down, but you can be helpful given that you were there during the 50's, even for a short period. Were you aware, even in your very vague supervisory duties there from time to time, of, shall we say, beatings or over discipline in the industrial school?
A. Never. I cannot remember any case of excess corporal punishment during my five months there.
Q. Again with the same, shall we say, preface to my question, do you understand, it is not about your involvement as such but, perhaps, what you could shed light on, how regularly did you supervise when you were in the school? :
A. My memory is -- and again I would have to say that it is 53, 54 years ago - all I can remember is that at weekends I had a slot of yard duty.
Q. I see.
A. That's my memory of it.
Q. I see. Whilst they might be outside exercising or something of that nature?
A. Yes.
Q. So it wouldn't have been during the school term as such, or during school hours? :
A. Well, I was teaching in another school so it wasn't during school hours.
Q. It couldn't have been that?
A. Yes.
Q. I understand. That answers that particular question. At the time were you still a novitiate or were you actually --
A. I was temporary professed.
Q. Temporary professed. Had you qualified as a teacher at that stage? :
A. No.
Q. You were qualifying as it were, you were training?
A. Yes, exactly.
Q. Had you received any training from the order at that stage yourself in relation to how you should deal with children in that environment, even in a supervisory capacity?
A. I would have got such training for the work I was doing in the other school, but nothing for what you are asking about.
Q. Yes. Would you be aware whether or not there was any particular training, do you understand, leaving aside teaching as a vocational training, but particular training for the Brothers -- who again shall remain nameless for the time being -- who were there at the time? Were you aware had they been trained?
A. Some of them would have had experience in similar schools in England as younger people.
Q. Yes. :
A. But apart from that I am not aware of any courses or seminars or anything that were available from our own Department of Education, or in this country even.
Q. Well, indeed, from the Department of Education I suppose they will have to ask that themselves. But within the Order itself was there any particular training?
A. I wouldn't think so, no.
Q. Yes. I think it is implicit in your statement, but, please, if you disagree with me feel free to do so, that you feel there should have been training for the people who were involved in running the institutions on a daily basis?
A. Absolutely. In today's experience, if there were boys from the ages of 6 to 16 in a given institution there probably would be 100 people looking after them, and rightly so. But the needs were not seen, the needs of the young people were not adverted to, they were not cared for and, particularly, I would have to advert to the fact that it was an all male institution, there was a complete absence of anything that would provide a mother's care for those children.
Q. Or a female perspective on things?
A. Exactly, yes.
Q. MR. O'LEARY: Yes, Chairman. Hello, Br. Minihane, how are you? My name is Tim O'Leary and I am here instructed by Mr. Eugene Murphy for Murphy English & Company solicitors, who the Commission have nominated to act on behalf of those who may have made various complaints to the Commission. I think you understand that.
A. I do.
Q. I think you also understand that it is not envisaged that I am going to mention any names of individual people who may have made complaints in the private Phase II part of the Inquiry. You understand that as well?
A. I do.
Q. I am also not going to mention any individual Brothers by name, I think it is not envisaged in that regard either. Although, I think maybe from time to time it will become clear during our conversation that there are individuals involved. You understand that as well?
A. Yes.
Q. I have read your opening statement, which effectively can be taken as the phase I statement in this Commission; isn't that right?
A. Yes.
Q. I just want to ask you a few personal questions in terms of your own, shall we say, involvement. You were actually attached to Greenmount Industrial School, were you simply residing there for that period of five months you mentioned?
A. Yes, I was residing there, I was teaching in another school in Cork City and I just did some supervision, a very small amount.
Q. Oh, I see. Yes. I had understood that you weren't involved in the running of the school, but you say you may have been involved in supervision in a general sense?
A. Yes.
Q. You are aware that there have been -- that evidence has been given of both physical and sexual abuse taking place at that time, and certainly leading up to that time and, indeed, after that time, maybe not specifically that particular period of time. I presume you were actually in the Commission when that evidence was given?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. First of all, to separate the two, would you accept that there was unwarranted physical abuse in Greenmount Industrial School?
A. Yes, by today's standards there certainly was, especially at a period during the 1940's, our research would show that there was certainly excess corporal punishment.
Q. Yes. As you know, that may have arisen for discipline reasons, it even may have existed without good disciplinary reasons. It is very hard to be precise in relation the that, but you would accept that it was excessive?
A. I would accept that certainly by today's standards it was excessive.
Q. Yes. Well it is very hard for me, as you can imagine, and indeed hard for yourself to go back into that time, as to what was acceptable then. But you may have heard evidence in relation to the use of, let's say, canes or I think what was described as bamboo sticks, in terms of certain corporal punishment. Would you think that's ever acceptable, even at the time?
A. There was mention by one of the contributors that there was a strap that had coins embedded in it, or something. I don't accept that. Any research I have done, or anything I could do to find out whether that happened or not has been negative.
Q. Oh I see. So just for the avoidance of doubt, you don't accept that happened is what you are saying?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Can I put it this way, because we won't be able to resolve it, I think, in this particular forum, it might be a matter for the Commission ultimately, in their report. Would you accept that if that did take place that it was unacceptable even at the time?
A. Oh yes.
Q. In relation to discipline generally, there doesn't appear to be any record, or a discipline log, or a discipline book, isn't that correct?
A. That's true.
Q. Do you know was there a discipline book kept at the time, or is it the fact that it has been lost, or is the case that in fact there was never any discipline book?
A. All I can tell you about a discipline book is that it is mentioned in the rules and constitutions of industrial schools.
Q. Yes.
A. Apart from the fact that it was there, I have never heard from any inspection that it was complained it was missing. We have no evidence whatever that a Punishment Book, as it was called, existed.
Q. Existed, yes.
A. Yes. As you know, there were frequent inspections of all the other books and there were reports made.
Q. Yes.
A. And at no time did we find a mention of the absence of a Punishment Book.
Q. Yes. Of the absence of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Or, indeed, the existence of it?
A. Exactly, yes.
Q. Did you have personal knowledge of the existence of such a book?
A. No.
Q. I presume you'd accept that if there wasn't such a book there should have been one?
A. Oh absolutely, it was in the rules. But what puzzles us is that it was never adverted to in any of the reports from visiting people from the Department.
Q. Either the presence or absence of same?
A. Exactly.
Q. In your time there, I know you weren't involved and you may take it, Br. Minihane, that I am not going to be asking you personal questions of that sense to in anyway lead you down any road you don't want to go down, but you can be helpful given that you were there during the 50's, even for a short period. Were you aware, even in your very vague supervisory duties there from time to time, of, shall we say, beatings or over discipline in the industrial school?
A. Never. I cannot remember any case of excess corporal punishment during my five months there.
Q. Again with the same, shall we say, preface to my question, do you understand, it is not about your involvement as such but, perhaps, what you could shed light on, how regularly did you supervise when you were in the school? :
A. My memory is -- and again I would have to say that it is 53, 54 years ago - all I can remember is that at weekends I had a slot of yard duty.
Q. I see.
A. That's my memory of it.
Q. I see. Whilst they might be outside exercising or something of that nature?
A. Yes.
Q. So it wouldn't have been during the school term as such, or during school hours? :
A. Well, I was teaching in another school so it wasn't during school hours.
Q. It couldn't have been that?
A. Yes.
Q. I understand. That answers that particular question. At the time were you still a novitiate or were you actually --
A. I was temporary professed.
Q. Temporary professed. Had you qualified as a teacher at that stage? :
A. No.
Q. You were qualifying as it were, you were training?
A. Yes, exactly.
Q. Had you received any training from the order at that stage yourself in relation to how you should deal with children in that environment, even in a supervisory capacity?
A. I would have got such training for the work I was doing in the other school, but nothing for what you are asking about.
Q. Yes. Would you be aware whether or not there was any particular training, do you understand, leaving aside teaching as a vocational training, but particular training for the Brothers -- who again shall remain nameless for the time being -- who were there at the time? Were you aware had they been trained?
A. Some of them would have had experience in similar schools in England as younger people.
Q. Yes. :
A. But apart from that I am not aware of any courses or seminars or anything that were available from our own Department of Education, or in this country even.
Q. Well, indeed, from the Department of Education I suppose they will have to ask that themselves. But within the Order itself was there any particular training?
A. I wouldn't think so, no.
Q. Yes. I think it is implicit in your statement, but, please, if you disagree with me feel free to do so, that you feel there should have been training for the people who were involved in running the institutions on a daily basis?
A. Absolutely. In today's experience, if there were boys from the ages of 6 to 16 in a given institution there probably would be 100 people looking after them, and rightly so. But the needs were not seen, the needs of the young people were not adverted to, they were not cared for and, particularly, I would have to advert to the fact that it was an all male institution, there was a complete absence of anything that would provide a mother's care for those children.
Q. Or a female perspective on things?
A. Exactly, yes.
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